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#101 [url]

Nov 24 16 10:54 AM

carlos b fly wrote:
matty tat tat wrote:
Carlos; the former, obviously. Maybe I need to read the rules thread again but perhaps we need to define a complaint process. Maybe PMing a moderator asking for their assistance or for them to intervene is the correct way to go about it as opposed to the moderator swooping in and resolving an issue they see but others may not.


Well, you shouldn't need a process to ask for my help. Lots of posters do it and you can and always should. As I've said, I get messages for everything from changing thread titles, forum admin restructures, complaints about members they'd like me to look at, asking for views on situations, etc. We are there to react in public situations at our discretion and we are also there to react should you come and need something.

Even if you don't like me or the other admins, I can assure you we'll always hear you out and try and find a solution when you PM.

  

WTF. Where are my PM's? smiley: laugh

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carlos b fly

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Posts: 24,475 You'll never be ready. Memba I told you!

#102 [url]

Nov 24 16 10:55 AM

matty tat tat wrote:

if a person doesn't ask for help or complain about someone via PM or in a thread, should the moderator step in and assert their power when it wasn't requested?


If you're asking for my honest answer, then yes.
  

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carlos b fly

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Posts: 24,475 You'll never be ready. Memba I told you!

#103 [url]

Nov 24 16 10:56 AM

ShayneFly wrote:
carlos b fly wrote:
matty tat tat wrote:
Carlos; the former, obviously. Maybe I need to read the rules thread again but perhaps we need to define a complaint process. Maybe PMing a moderator asking for their assistance or for them to intervene is the correct way to go about it as opposed to the moderator swooping in and resolving an issue they see but others may not.


Well, you shouldn't need a process to ask for my help. Lots of posters do it and you can and always should. As I've said, I get messages for everything from changing thread titles, forum admin restructures, complaints about members they'd like me to look at, asking for views on situations, etc. We are there to react in public situations at our discretion and we are also there to react should you come and need something.

Even if you don't like me or the other admins, I can assure you we'll always hear you out and try and find a solution when you PM.

  

WTF. Where are my PM's? smiley: laugh


I'll forward the next few to you. I get enough of the bloody things.
  

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greekmenrule

Posts: 1,969 GreekGodOfChicago

#104 [url]

Nov 24 16 10:56 AM

carlos b fly wrote:

matty tat tat wrote:

if a person doesn't ask for help or complain about someone via PM or in a thread, should the moderator step in and assert their power when it wasn't requested?


If you're asking for my honest answer, then yes.
  

of course.
clearly you've made that known.
Yet have NEVER defended Gawain during his years of humiliation and insult on this very board.
dude....I can't even.....
be honest, start anew......


Members, I apologize, no more negativity on my part. please accept my apology.......to you all.

I'm done.
 Some people can never and will never see themselves for who they are.

image

Last Edited By: greekmenrule Nov 24 16 11:01 AM. Edited 3 times.

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#105 [url]

Nov 24 16 10:59 AM

carlos b fly wrote:
ShayneFly wrote:
carlos b fly wrote:


Well, you shouldn't need a process to ask for my help. Lots of posters do it and you can and always should. As I've said, I get messages for everything from changing thread titles, forum admin restructures, complaints about members they'd like me to look at, asking for views on situations, etc. We are there to react in public situations at our discretion and we are also there to react should you come and need something.

Even if you don't like me or the other admins, I can assure you we'll always hear you out and try and find a solution when you PM.

  

WTF. Where are my PM's? smiley: laugh


I'll forward the next few to you. I get enough of the bloody things.
  


Forget I said anything smiley: laugh

I should go to bed too but I've filled up on so much coffee. Ugh.

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matty tat tat

Posts: 2,530

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I will hypnotise and mesmerise u
With the sound of your own fear

#106 [url]

Nov 24 16 11:07 AM

Well, I disagree with that Carlos. I really think that's where a lot of the tension stems from. If I'm having a heated discussion or argument and a mod who hasn't been part of the discussion steps in my reaction will be to assert my own right to tell said mod to kindly stay out of it until I or the other person request their assistance. We need to be able to discuss topics without the looming omnipresent moderators ready to hit the kill switch on something as soon as the moderator alarm bells start ringing. But hey, I can't speak for everyone. It's just my conclusion from lurking and observing things here for the most part.

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carlos b fly

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#107 [url]

Nov 24 16 11:15 AM

matty tat tat wrote:
Well, I disagree with that Carlos. I really think that's where a lot of the tension stems from. If I'm having a heated discussion or argument and a mod who hasn't been part of the discussion steps in my reaction will be to assert my own right to tell said mod to kindly stay out of it until I or the other person request their assistance. We need to be able to discuss topics without the looming omnipresent moderators ready to hit the kill switch on something as soon as the moderator alarm bells start ringing. But hey, I can't speak for everyone. It's just my conclusion from lurking and observing things here for the most part.


Unfortunately though Matty, this is part of the terms and conditions of FOMM. The same terms and conditions you agreed to try and uphold by posting here (and I, as an admin do my best to keep running). If you are in a Taylor Swift thread for example and someone starts to get overtly personal with you or the topic goes massively off topic, the admins do have the right to step in and ask they don't call you horrid things. We don't need a PM from you for permission of when you want to deploy me like a scud missile on your desired target.

We'll actually get PM's from posters demanding why we haven't got involved in things sooner, in fact. Obviously that's a balldrop at times, as I don't watch every thread. 


  

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Kevon

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#108 [url]

Nov 24 16 11:16 AM

I appreciate the thoughts here. As mentioned we won't necessarily implement everything suggested but I think the whole idea of having an open forum is a step to better driving communication and respect across the board. It's easy to build up a Me vs You type resentment when people don't have a platform to voice their feelings and discuss it. Some good suggestions may come out of this, and some better understandings.



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#109 [url]

Nov 24 16 11:22 AM

carlos b fly wrote:
mimifan09 wrote:

They should apply the rules of the board. Not meddle in debates in an attempt to act as a dispute resoluter, which I've seen Carlos do several times. The whole point of forums is discussion and heated debates occur.


I'm sorry but this is utter nonsense. That is utterly part of an admins job. If someone is speaking to you in a really awful way, it is the job of an admin to ask another poster to not speak to you that way or vice versa. Your arguments are so utterly inconsistent - you used Erica as an example of a poster who crossed the line (and you're right, she often did) with insulting behaviour, yet now you are saying people should be allowed to behave and speak to each however they want? 

  

My arguments aren't inconsistent. You've constantly twisted what I have said to suit yourself. 

I'm saying if two people are having a discussion that becomes heated but is still within the bounds of the forums rules, the moderators have no business interjecting trying to get one side to see the other side and taking up the role mediator like you have done before. If the debate becomes aggressive and someone is speaking someone else in a really awful way, throwing personal insults around, then it is your job to intervene and ask them to refrain from that behaviour, I agree 100%. 


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#110 [url]

Nov 24 16 11:22 AM

Kevon wrote:

I guess this is where I am struggling to picture it. In this thread alone I've seen people saying that they want more transparency. For example, people assume David gets away with everything then Carlos reveals that he has actually pulled him up about some stuff in the past, privately. Or that Gawain wasn't just reprimanded out of nowhere, there was issues that had gone on via PM that people didn't know about. So when action is taken it seems out of the blue. Therefore there's a lack of transparency.


My point regarding transparency is in relation to the application of the rules. Why does Gawain get a ban for the relatively minor things he has done yet someone else might have repeatedly behaved aggressively towards a person yet only get a warning? People have mocked and laughed at Gawain for years yet it doesn't seem like anyone was banned for that.

That's where I feel there needs to be more transparency because I feel there is an inconsistency in the application of the rules. 

Last Edited By: mimifan09 Nov 24 16 11:26 AM. Edited 1 time.

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#111 [url]

Nov 24 16 11:26 AM

matty tat tat wrote:
Well, I disagree with that Carlos. I really think that's where a lot of the tension stems from. If I'm having a heated discussion or argument and a mod who hasn't been part of the discussion steps in my reaction will be to assert my own right to tell said mod to kindly stay out of it until I or the other person request their assistance. We need to be able to discuss topics without the looming omnipresent moderators ready to hit the kill switch on something as soon as the moderator alarm bells start ringing. But hey, I can't speak for everyone. It's just my conclusion from lurking and observing things here for the most part.

I think there's a broader issue that ties in with this as well. An argument can also be dragged on for too long in a thread and I think those posters coming to threads to seek or add to the discussion topic at hand need to also be considered.

It's not fair for those to be unwillingly subjected to an argument and have to scroll through a disagreement between two or three people of which they are not involved and wish to have nothing to do with. So there is a point at which some cold water needs to be thrown on the argument in respect to other members.

Some may actually be deterred from posting in the thread and adding to the discussion which I think needs to be considered moreso than letting an argument go on long enough to peak and drop off and get back to normal.


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carlos b fly

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#112 [url]

Nov 24 16 11:28 AM

mimifan09 wrote:
carlos b fly wrote:
mimifan09 wrote:
They should apply the rules of the board. Not meddle in debates in an attempt to act as a dispute resoluter, which I've seen Carlos do several times. The whole point of forums is discussion and heated debates occur.


I'm sorry but this is utter nonsense. That is utterly part of an admins job. If someone is speaking to you in a really awful way, it is the job of an admin to ask another poster to not speak to you that way or vice versa. Your arguments are so utterly inconsistent - you used Erica as an example of a poster who crossed the line (and you're right, she often did) with insulting behaviour, yet now you are saying people should be allowed to behave and speak to each however they want? 

  


I'm saying if two people are having a discussion that becomes heated but is still within the bounds of the forums rules, the moderators have no business interjecting trying to get one side to see the other side and taking up the role mediator like you have done before.



Can you provide an example of this? Even a hypothetical one will suffice so I can understand in greater detail.

  

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Kevon

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Posts: 40,357 'Showing receipts and offering seats'

#113 [url]

Nov 24 16 12:16 PM

mimifan09 wrote:
Kevon wrote:

I guess this is where I am struggling to picture it. In this thread alone I've seen people saying that they want more transparency. For example, people assume David gets away with everything then Carlos reveals that he has actually pulled him up about some stuff in the past, privately. Or that Gawain wasn't just reprimanded out of nowhere, there was issues that had gone on via PM that people didn't know about. So when action is taken it seems out of the blue. Therefore there's a lack of transparency.


My point regarding transparency is in relation to the application of the rules. Why does Gawain get a ban for the relatively minor things he has done yet someone else might have repeatedly behaved aggressively towards a person yet only get a warning? People have mocked and laughed at Gawain for years yet it doesn't seem like anyone was banned for that.

That's where I feel there needs to be more transparency because I feel there is an inconsistency in the application of the rules. 

This has definitely happened in the past, I admit that and think I have read earlier that the others did too. In the past there are people who have been let away with a lot and others who have not fared so well. It's something I as a moderator will be being more vigilant of in future as a result of these discussions.



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carlos b fly

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Posts: 24,475 You'll never be ready. Memba I told you!

#114 [url]

Nov 24 16 12:16 PM

ShayneFly wrote:
matty tat tat wrote:
Well, I disagree with that Carlos. I really think that's where a lot of the tension stems from. If I'm having a heated discussion or argument and a mod who hasn't been part of the discussion steps in my reaction will be to assert my own right to tell said mod to kindly stay out of it until I or the other person request their assistance. We need to be able to discuss topics without the looming omnipresent moderators ready to hit the kill switch on something as soon as the moderator alarm bells start ringing. But hey, I can't speak for everyone. It's just my conclusion from lurking and observing things here for the most part.

I think there's a broader issue that ties in with this as well. An argument can also be dragged on for too long in a thread and I think those posters coming to threads to seek or add to the discussion topic at hand need to also be considered.

It's not fair for those to be unwillingly subjected to an argument and have to scroll through a disagreement between two or three people of which they are not involved and wish to have nothing to do with. So there is a point at which some cold water needs to be thrown on the argument in respect to other members.

Some may actually be deterred from posting in the thread and adding to the discussion which I think needs to be considered moreso than letting an argument go on long enough to peak and drop off and get back to normal.



And we know from experience going back to normal can take days, if ever, in those situations. You only had to be around for the Beyoncé thread to know that. It was awful watching two or more posters just get more and more aggressive at each other, finding more and more slurs or insults with each return post. The only way it did stop was when you either a) locked the thread to allow emotions to cool or b) managed to pull a miracle and ask people to simmer down a bit or be reasonable with their engagements.

I'd take proactive mediation like that any day rather than let it run on. Its what built so many endless rivalries back then because the cuts were allowed to be made. 

  

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breakbreakdown

Posts: 11,194 We love everybody.

#115 [url]

Nov 24 16 12:40 PM

I think carlosbfly 's abuse of "power" has been evident in the past, as I have the opportunity to have said that to him. However, he was right on this one, Gawain crossed the line. The thing is: I think he should have had a public warning instead of an immediate ban. He had become a legend on this board and even though he is delusional most of the times, I think he hasn't had a constant erratic behavior that justifies the ban. Yes, the insult was bizarre and botherline homophobic, but how often people here have insulted each other, questioning their character and being straight psychologically abusive? Or have made insulting comments and only got a "watch out your manners" comment? And those people never got banned. When the criteria differs because you're part of the "mean girls" club, I don't think that's fair at all.

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carlos b fly

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#117 [url]

Nov 24 16 1:15 PM

breakbreakdown wrote:
I think carlosbfly 's abuse of "power" has been evident in the past, as I have the opportunity to have said that to him. However, he was right on this one, Gawain crossed the line. The thing is: I think he should have had a public warning instead of an immediate ban. He had become a legend on this board and even though he is delusional most of the times, I think he hasn't had a constant erratic behavior that justifies the ban. Yes, the insult was bizarre and botherline homophobic, but how often people here have insulted each other, questioning their character and being straight psychologically abusive?

I do appreciate that and I really respect that you haven't used this as an agenda or attack. I think you have seen me before ask people in threads (yes, I'm 'mediating') to try not to say things of certain natures because its downhill from there. I know anyone can slip up but when you near that line of sexuality or colour or those kinds of things, I think we should all try and steer away from them. Its a real minefield.
  

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carlos b fly

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Posts: 24,475 You'll never be ready. Memba I told you!

#118 [url]

Nov 24 16 1:16 PM

Mariah88 wrote:
I do feel that what Gawain said was unacceptable, but so is the authoritarian mentality of Carlos.

I appreciate and respect that too.

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breakbreakdown

Posts: 11,194 We love everybody.

#119 [url]

Nov 24 16 7:25 PM

carlos b fly wrote:
breakbreakdown wrote:
I think carlosbfly 's abuse of "power" has been evident in the past, as I have the opportunity to have said that to him. However, he was right on this one, Gawain crossed the line. The thing is: I think he should have had a public warning instead of an immediate ban. He had become a legend on this board and even though he is delusional most of the times, I think he hasn't had a constant erratic behavior that justifies the ban. Yes, the insult was bizarre and botherline homophobic, but how often people here have insulted each other, questioning their character and being straight psychologically abusive?

I do appreciate that and I really respect that you haven't used this as an agenda or attack. I think you have seen me before ask people in threads (yes, I'm 'mediating') to try not to say things of certain natures because its downhill from there. I know anyone can slip up but when you near that line of sexuality or colour or those kinds of things, I think we should all try and steer away from them. Its a real minefield.
  



*have=had *botherline=borderline

I can be quite picky like Mariah when it comes to post editing, now that I've figured out how to edit in my cellphone. But... I have to let it go...

I enjoy you as a poster. And even as a moderator, I honestly think you have been doing a good job, overall speaking. I remember you were always very reasonable with your posting approach (mostly in the beginning, then you started being delusional about Gaga ). No, seriously, I totally understand why you became a moderator over other posters that have been here around the same time as you have. You are classy, you don't have multiple personas, you don't try to be one of the boys (girls, I guess), you aren't phony, you don't kiss a$$, you aren't fakingly over-the-top. God knows if we had a guetto-ish FOMM administration And, yes, I do confirm that you have called some of your besties out, so you aren't completely biased. They just haven't been banned (rightfully so).

And that's it. To balance the criticism you got :-) Actually, this thread feels more like a personal vendetta against you rather than save-Gwaian-movement. But that's me reading between some blurred lines

Last Edited By: breakbreakdown Nov 24 16 7:35 PM. Edited 2 times.

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carlos b fly

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#120 [url]

Nov 24 16 7:58 PM

breakbreakdown wrote:
carlos b fly wrote:
breakbreakdown wrote:
I think carlosbfly 's abuse of "power" has been evident in the past, as I have the opportunity to have said that to him. However, he was right on this one, Gawain crossed the line. The thing is: I think he should have had a public warning instead of an immediate ban. He had become a legend on this board and even though he is delusional most of the times, I think he hasn't had a constant erratic behavior that justifies the ban. Yes, the insult was bizarre and botherline homophobic, but how often people here have insulted each other, questioning their character and being straight psychologically abusive?

I do appreciate that and I really respect that you haven't used this as an agenda or attack. I think you have seen me before ask people in threads (yes, I'm 'mediating') to try not to say things of certain natures because its downhill from there. I know anyone can slip up but when you near that line of sexuality or colour or those kinds of things, I think we should all try and steer away from them. Its a real minefield.
  



*have=had *botherline=borderline

I can be quite picky like Mariah when it comes to post editing, now that I've figured out how to edit in my cellphone. But... I have to let it go... laugh.gif

I enjoy you as a poster. And even as a moderator, I honestly think you have been doing a good job, overall speaking. I remember you were always very reasonable with your posting approach (mostly in the beginning, then you started being delusional about Gaga laugh.gif). No, seriously, I totally understand why you became a moderator over other posters that have been here around the same time as you have. You are classy, you don't have multiple personas, you don't try to be one of the boys (girls, I guess), you aren't phony, you don't kiss a$$, you aren't fakingly over-the-top. God knows if we had a guetto-ish FOMM administration laugh.gif And, yes, I do confirm that you have called some of your besties out, so you aren't completely biased. They just haven't been banned (rightfully so).

And that's it. To balance the criticism you got :-) Actually, this thread feels more like a personal vendetta against you rather than save-Gwaian-movement. But that's me reading between some blurred lines laugh.gif


We read the same lines my friend and I appreciate what you've said and your perceptions. However, there is some truth in my part that due to this relentless catty chat back on every single issue no matter what you say or how you approach it (not just to me either) and due to me becoming the 'go to administrator' always in the trenches, I think I have become more sharp with my moderating and maybe even a bit exhausted. 'Overly authoritive' was a word someone used and I think that they may be right.   

Its become a case of get in, shut it down, get out because its constantly a relentless challenge against the admins from a particular corner.

I'll be working on solutions with myself and the other admins to address this, in the spirit of listening to certain feedback.


 



  

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