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carlos b fly

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#41 [url]

Nov 23 16 7:54 PM

mcfan wrote:
carlos b fly wrote:
mcfan wrote:
What is considered "bad behaviour" in a board where we generally support and respect each others as a family?

This is a very broad question, Mario. You'll need to be a bit more specific.


Basically let's discuss the rules tailoring them to our community rather than just making them standard, lifted from wherever else.


But we didn't. The rules were written from scratch by a team of admins and went through dozens of revisions.

This has been made clear and discussed before.
  

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#42 [url]

Nov 23 16 8:00 PM

carlos b fly wrote:
mimifan09 wrote:
carlos b fly wrote:

I did, as I've clearly said. I don't have to repeat myself on this matter do I? Even more so to also get an even more berating PM. This was the straw that broke the camels back and was in violation of three T & C's, which were all very clearly spelt out to Gawain during my much more civilised reply. This was made clear and is frankly, a conversation between myself and the other party, nobody else.  
  
Do you realise how patronising you sound and often sounded in your replies in this thread?


Let me stop you right there. Right there.

You wanna know what's really patronising?  

That not once have you even attempted to think the other person (ie; me) in this conversation could actually have some feelings? "Bitter queen" was not said with any affection in this instance. It was an insult, you know it, I know it, we know exactly the tone and context it was being used in this incident, so lets not mess about. And yes, lets NOT patronise. You haven't once in this conversation even tried to say to me "I could understand why that may have been considered hurtful or insulting from your side, as you did not throw any kind of insult at the other party". You have not done this once.

If the tables were turned, I would at least try to also understand your emotional perspective on it, even if I didn't agree.


Actually I did. In my first reply I said "If you found what Gawain said to be offensive Carlos, then that's fair." 

The broader issue I'm attempting to address is, whether or not offensive behaviour that warrants a warning or a ban, what you personally deem it to be? Or are you applying the forum definition of what is offensive behaviour? There's a lack of transparency around this.

Over the years we've seen varying the degrees of personal attacks on people that might not be offensive to one person but are to another. These have often gone completely unnoticed or brushed aside because of the seniority and popularity of certain members. My motive here is just that we all be held to the same standards and rules. 

I and others don't find what Gawain said to you to be offensive. You are offended. But surely you being offended can't be a benchmark of whether someone deserves a ban? There has to be some level of objectivity in the rule making of this forum.

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carlos b fly

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#43 [url]

Nov 23 16 8:07 PM

mimifan09 wrote:
carlos b fly wrote:
mimifan09 wrote:
Do you realise how patronising you sound and often sounded in your replies in this thread?


Let me stop you right there. Right there.

You wanna know what's really patronising?  

That not once have you even attempted to think the other person (ie; me) in this conversation could actually have some feelings? "Bitter queen" was not said with any affection in this instance. It was an insult, you know it, I know it, we know exactly the tone and context it was being used in this incident, so lets not mess about. And yes, lets NOT patronise. You haven't once in this conversation even tried to say to me "I could understand why that may have been considered hurtful or insulting from your side, as you did not throw any kind of insult at the other party". You have not done this once.

If the tables were turned, I would at least try to also understand your emotional perspective on it, even if I didn't agree.



I and others don't find what Gawain said to you to be offensive. You are offended. But surely you being offended can't be a benchmark of whether someone deserves a ban? There has to be some level of objectivity in the rule making of this forum.


Wait, hold up. So lets say someone gets annoyed at you and calls you a "mouthy poof" on here (remember though, I'm sure they are just using some cool slang) and for some reason, I miss it. So, you PM me asking me to offer some level of intervention. Since I can't be the 'benchmark' to make a decision on something that has clearly offended or upset you....

What happens then? You tell me about this procedure you'd like to see if a designated community manager can't actually manage.
  

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BeyondIdolization

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#44 [url]

Nov 23 16 8:24 PM

I know that some of you here like to scream bully and play the victim, but you guys are actually being bullies and hypocrites in this very thread. You're badgering Carlos over and over and discounting his feelings because according to YOU the comments weren't offensive. How is he supposed to take any of your complaints seriously in the future when you're basically saying to him 'oh big deal, get over it'? Again, you guys can't play the victims when you seem more than willing to gang up on someone else and try to bully them into submission.


  

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#45 [url]

Nov 23 16 8:24 PM

carlos b fly wrote:
mimifan09 wrote:
carlos b fly wrote:


Let me stop you right there. Right there.

You wanna know what's really patronising?  

That not once have you even attempted to think the other person (ie; me) in this conversation could actually have some feelings? "Bitter queen" was not said with any affection in this instance. It was an insult, you know it, I know it, we know exactly the tone and context it was being used in this incident, so lets not mess about. And yes, lets NOT patronise. You haven't once in this conversation even tried to say to me "I could understand why that may have been considered hurtful or insulting from your side, as you did not throw any kind of insult at the other party". You have not done this once.

If the tables were turned, I would at least try to also understand your emotional perspective on it, even if I didn't agree.



I and others don't find what Gawain said to you to be offensive. You are offended. But surely you being offended can't be a benchmark of whether someone deserves a ban? There has to be some level of objectivity in the rule making of this forum.


Wait, hold up. So lets say someone gets annoyed at you and calls you a "mouthy poof" on here (remember though, I'm sure they are just using some cool slang) and for some reason, I miss it. So, you PM me asking me to offer some level of intervention. Since I can't be the 'benchmark' to make a decision on something that has clearly offended or upset you....

What happens then? You tell me about this procedure you'd like to see if a designated community manager can't actually manage.
  

Well first of all we need to have a forum discussion about what constitutes offensive and aggressive behaviour so that we can all reach an agreement and be aware of the rules and standards that we should all be upholding. As it stands there's clearly differing views and it appears that there's this unyielding power that the mods have to either ignore what's said or apply a rule when they are personally hurt. Take that member Erika. She was one of the most aggressive and insulting people I came across on a message board. Maybe she had issues but her behaviour was appalling and would not have been tolerated on most other message boards. Yet she seemed to be able to do and say what she wanted here.

As for your example of "mouthy poof", I believe that is far more homophobic and offensive than calling someone a bitter or drama queen. Would I be personally offended by it? Probably not but I think that it would warrant a warning. I'm sure if you polled people of all ages, gender, sexualities, the majority would not consider calling someone a bitter queen to be anything more than just simply calling that person bitter. It's commonplace lingo that I have heard all my life. It might not be right to call someone a bitter or drama queen but it occurs in both real life and on boards all over the net all of the time. 



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#46 [url]

Nov 23 16 8:33 PM

BeyondIdolization wrote:
I know that some of you here like to scream bully and play the victim, but you guys are actually being bullies and hypocrites in this very thread. You're badgering Carlos over and over and discounting his feelings because according to YOU the comments weren't offensive. How is he supposed to take any of your complaints seriously in the future when you're basically saying to him 'oh big deal, get over it'? Again, you guys can't play the victims when you seem more than willing to gang up on someone else and try to bully them into submission.
Are you serious saying he's been bullied into submission? This was a civilised debate. His feelings were considered but he accused me of not doing so. 

Ive never played the victim here. I simply want to know what are the rules, when are they to be applied and by whom. I completely accept Carlos feels offended. 

But it is also ironic for you to call us bullies and hypocrites when you've been called a bully by so many members over the years I've been here and said far worse than calling someone a bitter queen yet you haven't been banned, at least in the 4 years I've been here.

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carlos b fly

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#47 [url]

Nov 23 16 8:41 PM

mimifan09 wrote:
carlos b fly wrote:
mimifan09 wrote:

I and others don't find what Gawain said to you to be offensive. You are offended. But surely you being offended can't be a benchmark of whether someone deserves a ban? There has to be some level of objectivity in the rule making of this forum.


Wait, hold up. So lets say someone gets annoyed at you and calls you a "mouthy poof" on here (remember though, I'm sure they are just using some cool slang) and for some reason, I miss it. So, you PM me asking me to offer some level of intervention. Since I can't be the 'benchmark' to make a decision on something that has clearly offended or upset you....

What happens then? You tell me about this procedure you'd like to see if a designated community manager can't actually manage.
  

Well first of all we need to have a forum discussion about what constitutes offensive and aggressive behaviour so that we can all reach an agreement and be aware of the rules and standards that we should all be upholding. As it stands there's clearly differing views and it appears that there's this unyielding power that the mods have to either ignore what's said or apply a rule when they are personally hurt. Take that member Erika. She was one of the most aggressive and insulting people I came across on a message board. Maybe she had issues but her behaviour was appalling and would not have been tolerated on most other message boards. Yet she seemed to be able to do and say what she wanted here.




Reach an agreement?

There is no agreement to be reached. There is an elected board of administrators, chosen by the owner of this board. They are given jurisdiction to then try and run the board according to the rules (made actually at the request of the board so we had some kind of rough structure) and/or discuss serious matters. The rules are a guideline and we try and review things on a case by case basis with those involved.

In regards to your point about Erica, I was not an admin for most of her tenure here and yes, Erica was aggressive and often crossed the line. She also used language that was offensive in heated situations and only added to the tension (I'm sure you'd let this pass though, right?). Once I become an admin, I spoke to Erica in private and to her credit, she did actually tone down her behaviour massively and publicly withdrew from fights and stated she wanted to respect the newer rules of the board. I don't want to talk about her too much because she's not here but that is the case and I appreciated her for that.

Again, this is not something you may know because you were not involved, you are not an Admin and there is no need for to know or be consulted like some kind of public jury. It was an admin matter and handled as such. Mario himself will attest that if he has an issue, he will PM and I will try to deal with it behind the scenes as swiftly as possible. Do not presume to assume things are not done just because we are not getting your personal feedback or approval. I have sorted more issues on this board between members over the years than you've had hot dinners.    
  

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carlos b fly

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#48 [url]

Nov 23 16 8:42 PM

mimifan09 wrote:
BeyondIdolization wrote:
I know that some of you here like to scream bully and play the victim, but you guys are actually being bullies and hypocrites in this very thread. You're badgering Carlos over and over and discounting his feelings because according to YOU the comments weren't offensive. How is he supposed to take any of your complaints seriously in the future when you're basically saying to him 'oh big deal, get over it'? Again, you guys can't play the victims when you seem more than willing to gang up on someone else and try to bully them into submission.

But it is also ironic for you to call us bullies and hypocrites when you've been called a bully by so many members over the years I've been here and said far worse than calling someone a bitter queen yet you haven't been banned, at least in the 4 years I've been here.

Is this what this is all about? You might as well speak on it if so.
  

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#49 [url]

Nov 23 16 8:50 PM

carlos b fly wrote:
mimifan09 wrote:
BeyondIdolization wrote:
I know that some of you here like to scream bully and play the victim, but you guys are actually being bullies and hypocrites in this very thread. You're badgering Carlos over and over and discounting his feelings because according to YOU the comments weren't offensive. How is he supposed to take any of your complaints seriously in the future when you're basically saying to him 'oh big deal, get over it'? Again, you guys can't play the victims when you seem more than willing to gang up on someone else and try to bully them into submission.

But it is also ironic for you to call us bullies and hypocrites when you've been called a bully by so many members over the years I've been here and said far worse than calling someone a bitter queen yet you haven't been banned, at least in the 4 years I've been here.

Is this what this is all about? You might as well speak on it if so.
  
Speak on what? Ive stated my point all along. I think you run FOMM like a dictatorship and you favour certain people over others and let things slide that arguably shouldn't have been, if you were applying the so called rules of this board fairly.

I personally don't have any issue with David but fact of the matter is he has been called a bully by several people over the years.

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carlos b fly

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#50 [url]

Nov 23 16 8:52 PM

mimifan09 wrote:
carlos b fly wrote:
mimifan09 wrote:

But it is also ironic for you to call us bullies and hypocrites when you've been called a bully by so many members over the years I've been here and said far worse than calling someone a bitter queen yet you haven't been banned, at least in the 4 years I've been here.

Is this what this is all about? You might as well speak on it if so.
  
Speak on what? Ive stated my point all along. I think you run FOMM like a dictatorship and you favour certain people over others and let things slide that arguably shouldn't have been, if you were applying the so called rules of this board fairly.

I personally don't have any issue with David but fact of the matter is he has been called a bully by several people over the years.


So you are assuming David has never been moderated or spoken to by myself or another administrator then?
  

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BeyondIdolization

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#51 [url]

Nov 23 16 8:52 PM

mimifan09 wrote:
BeyondIdolization wrote:
I know that some of you here like to scream bully and play the victim, but you guys are actually being bullies and hypocrites in this very thread. You're badgering Carlos over and over and discounting his feelings because according to YOU the comments weren't offensive. How is he supposed to take any of your complaints seriously in the future when you're basically saying to him 'oh big deal, get over it'? Again, you guys can't play the victims when you seem more than willing to gang up on someone else and try to bully them into submission.
Are you serious saying he's been bullied into submission? This was a civilised debate. His feelings were considered but he accused me of not doing so. 

Ive never played the victim here. I simply want to know what are the rules, when are they to be applied and by whom. I completely accept Carlos feels offended. 

But it is also ironic for you to call us bullies and hypocrites when you've been called a bully by so many members over the years I've been here and said far worse than calling someone a bitter queen yet you haven't been banned, at least in the 4 years I've been here.

That's exactly why I said some of you here like to scream bully and play the victim - but now you're being hypocrites because you're telling Carlos him being offended isn't valid and you're ganging up and trying to bully him into agreeing with you. That was my point, that you can't scream 'bully' at any and every moment and then turn around and try to bully someone else.
 


  

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#52 [url]

Nov 23 16 9:13 PM

carlos b fly wrote:

Reach an agreement?

There is no agreement to be reached. There is an elected board of administrators, chosen by the owner of this board. They are given jurisdiction to then try and run the board according to the rules (made actually at the request of the board so we had some kind of rough structure) and/or discuss serious matters. The rules are a guideline and we try and review things on a case by case basis with those involved.


Can you not post these rules so we can all read them?

Most of the music boards I have posted on have had owners and elected boards of admins but they have also had the courtesy to make the administration of the board transparent. The members are fully aware of the rules and how and when they apply. Some boards have included the members in the creation of rules so that everyone is on the same page and willing to adhere to the rules. 

Clearly that's not the type of board that the owners of FOMM or the administrators want. Yes you've ran the board for years but does that make you immune from criticism? Or is criticism now considered bullying?

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#53 [url]

Nov 23 16 9:14 PM

carlos b fly wrote:


So you are assuming David has never been moderated or spoken to by myself or another administrator then?
  

I'm not assuming anything. In the four years I've been here, people have called David a bully and he has said things to people that would arguably be equal to or more offensive to someone than being called a bitter queen yet he was not banned like Gawain. So where's the fairness in that? 

Gawain has been one of the most positive, harmless members on this board. He tries his best to support Mariah. Yes he might take it too far at times and it's overbearing but he has been castigated for that over the years. Mocked and laughed at for the things he has said yet kept coming back here. He made one mistake and he gets banned. The whole thing screams of a power trip on your part. 




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carlos b fly

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#54 [url]

Nov 23 16 9:15 PM

mimifan09 wrote:
carlos b fly wrote:


So you are assuming David has never been moderated or spoken to by myself or another administrator then?
  

I'm not assuming anything. In the four years I've been here, people have called David a bully and he has said things to people that would arguably be equal to or more offensive to someone than being called a bitter queen yet he was not banned like Gawain. So where's the fairness in that? 

Gawain has been one of the most positive, harmless members on this board. He tries his best to support Mariah. Yes he might take it too far at times and it's overbearing but he has been castigated for that over the years. Mocked and laughed at for the things he has said yet kept coming back here. He made one mistake and he gets banned. The whole thing screams of a power trip on your part. 





I don't need to run over this again, do I? He was not given a 3 day ban for just calling me a 'bitter queen'. What part of this do I need to explain again?
  

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carlos b fly

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#55 [url]

Nov 23 16 9:18 PM

mimifan09 wrote:
carlos b fly wrote:

Reach an agreement?

There is no agreement to be reached. There is an elected board of administrators, chosen by the owner of this board. They are given jurisdiction to then try and run the board according to the rules (made actually at the request of the board so we had some kind of rough structure) and/or discuss serious matters. The rules are a guideline and we try and review things on a case by case basis with those involved.


Can you not post these rules so we can all read them?

Most of the music boards I have posted on have had owners and elected boards of admins but they have also had the courtesy to make the administration of the board transparent. The members are fully aware of the rules and how and when they apply. Some boards have included the members in the creation of rules so that everyone is on the same page and willing to adhere to the rules. 

Clearly that's not the type of board that the owners of FOMM or the administrators want. Yes you've ran the board for years but does that make you immune from criticism? Or is criticism now considered bullying?


The rules are public. And have been since they were first implemented. I know you and your little group are determined to paint the admins as lazy do nothings who enjoy making people suffer and don't want to see anyones side but we are decent enough to have the rules public. We're kind like that. 

  

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BeyondIdolization

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#56 [url]

Nov 23 16 9:27 PM

I'd just like to point out that I was for a board with no rules at all. I think people should be able to communicate in whatever way they want to. Then we could lose the hypocrisy and victim-playing for good.


  

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#57 [url]

Nov 23 16 9:30 PM

carlos b fly wrote:

The rules are public. And have been since they were first implemented. I know you and your little group are determined to paint the admins as lazy do nothings who enjoy making people suffer and don't want to see anyones side but we are decent enough to have the rules public. We're kind like that. 

  

I'm not part of any group. I speak for myself. I don't think you or your group of admins are lazy do nothings. I think you have unfettered discretion to do whatever you want and that's the problem.

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carlos b fly

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#58 [url]

Nov 23 16 9:31 PM

BeyondIdolization wrote:
I'd just like to point out that I was for a board with no rules at all. I think people should be able to communicate in whatever way they want to. Then we could lose the hypocrisy and victim-playing for good.

In fairness, you were. I disagreed on that then and disagree now but you can bet anything they'd be complaining the same if not more without it.
  

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carlos b fly

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Posts: 24,475 You'll never be ready. Memba I told you!

#59 [url]

Nov 23 16 9:34 PM

mimifan09 wrote:
carlos b fly wrote:

The rules are public. And have been since they were first implemented. I know you and your little group are determined to paint the admins as lazy do nothings who enjoy making people suffer and don't want to see anyones side but we are decent enough to have the rules public. We're kind like that. 

  

I'm not part of any group. I speak for myself. I don't think you or your group of admins are lazy do nothings. I think you have unfettered discretion to do whatever you want and that's the problem.


I thought your problem was us impressing rules and guidelines we were keeping secret but expecting you to comply with? Obviously discovering your rather catastrophic mishap that these rules and guidelines have been public and plastered around the site since May 2015, you now need another arrow in your bow?
  

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#60 [url]

Nov 23 16 9:44 PM

carlos b fly wrote:

I thought your problem was us impressing rules and guidelines we were keeping secret but expecting you to comply with? Obviously discovering your rather catastrophic mishap that these rules and guidelines have been public and plastered around the site since May 2015, you now need another arrow in your bow?
  

I said from my very first post that I think you are a dictator and you are on a power trip and my point has remained the same since. You can try twist my words, ignore what I've said because I did empathise with you regarding your feelings and rules or no rules, I believe you've failed to apply whatever code you operate on fairly and equally. 

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