Remove this ad

avatar

Ginger1.vivamariah19436

Posts: 5,574 High yellow bastard

#181 [url]

Aug 24 16 11:37 AM

Kevon wrote:
^I think Tommy had a big thing to do with her lack of respect. Initially there was probably a lot of side eye because they were married. Tommy was known as being one of the most fearsome (and therefore probably disliked) men in the business. I reckon that things like award shows were probably the one place where people could probably kick him in the balls anonymously and what better way to do it than to take it out on his wife when voting for her awards.
Tommy alluded to this being the case in his book, when she went 0 for 6 at the Grammy's. 

But I don't really see Mariah being snubbed back in the 90s for the VMA's.  You look at the nominees, and she would have stuck out like a sore thumb.  She might have been able to sneak in a R&B video award, but she wasn't seen as an R&B artist yet.



Quote    Reply   
Remove this ad
avatar

mcfan

Posts: 34,981

#Beautiful

#182 [url]

Aug 24 16 12:34 PM

Ginger1 wrote:

But I don't really see Mariah being snubbed back in the 90s for the VMA's.  You look at the nominees, and she would have stuck out like a sore thumb.  She might have been able to sneak in a R&B video award, but she wasn't seen as an R&B artist yet.

Yes, she would'nt have had a chance against some of those nominees. But then why weren't more of her videos at least nominated?

The most glaring omission is "Heartbreaker" considering the entire Rainbow era was marketed on and around MTV and its audience.  

  
  

Quote    Reply   
avatar

mcfan

Posts: 34,981

#Beautiful

#183 [url]

Aug 24 16 12:37 PM

RE: Grammys. Well back in the 90s they actually awarded them based on critical reception most of the time. It wasn't until the late 2000s that they started awarding music based on commercial performance, so Mariah has been just very unlucky. In the 90s, at the heighth of her popularity she was considered a soulless label puppy and now she's not enough of a hitmaker to grab a nom despite getting a better critical reception.

I think the same would apply to the VMAs, if it wasn't that the VMAs have never been about the music. It's a show based on controversy and ratings. And Mariah would've brought plenty of ratings in her heyday.

  
  

Quote    Reply   
avatar

Kevon

Administrator

Posts: 40,357 'Showing receipts and offering seats'

#185 [url]

Aug 25 16 6:13 AM

I think part of the problem back then was that Mariah had such a squeaky clean imagine and then came out of nowhere with Honey so the drama surrounding that probably overshadowed how good the video was. I'd imagine people were probably viewing it as a "WTF" moment more than anything. Of course these days a video like Honey wouldn't make you think twice in terms of its sexual aspects, but back then for Mariah people probably just used that as another reason to mock her.



Wrapped up in a shady tortilla

Quote    Reply   
avatar

carlos b fly

Administrator

Posts: 24,475 You'll never be ready. Memba I told you!

#186 [url]

Aug 25 16 7:54 AM

Kevon wrote:
^I think Tommy had a big thing to do with her lack of respect. Initially there was probably a lot of side eye because they were married. Tommy was known as being one of the most fearsome (and therefore probably disliked) men in the business. I reckon that things like award shows were probably the one place where people could probably kick him in the balls anonymously and what better way to do it than to take it out on his wife when voting for her awards. Then of course after they separated Mariah was pretty much the go-to joke for people who they wanted to tear down throughout the 90s. I mean, it still haunted her in 2006 when she had undeniably the best choice for album of the year but they still snubbed her.

Honestly I think only now that she is becoming a legacy artist is the industry starting to acknowledge her influence. And even now tbh she still has a long way to go. Sadly I think she will be long gone before people finally pay her her dues.


In the 90's, I think she went through two public perception phases that impeded her. The first was cheesy, bubblegum AC artist. A few dashes cooler than Celine Dion and with Tommy in the mix, butting industry heads in her name. The second phase was a 'slutty', demanding and difficult diva (lets be honest, with such a radical image change, Mariah could be seen as a bit extra from 97 - 99). Maybe neither of these images were seen as credible or worthy of award allocades.

Its totally bullsh!t of course. Mariah is incredibly talented, a 360 faceted artist and in the 90's, was innovating pop music in creative ways that redefined the genre forever.  

But I wonder if snobbery towards boring ballad bird and OTT sex kitten played a part.

Whatever the case, Mariah must surely be the most underrated and under awarded iconic, enduring artist in modern music. Which is criminal.
  

Quote    Reply   
avatar

Kevon

Administrator

Posts: 40,357 'Showing receipts and offering seats'

#188 [url]

Aug 25 16 8:50 AM

carlos b fly wrote:
Kevon wrote:
^I think Tommy had a big thing to do with her lack of respect. Initially there was probably a lot of side eye because they were married. Tommy was known as being one of the most fearsome (and therefore probably disliked) men in the business. I reckon that things like award shows were probably the one place where people could probably kick him in the balls anonymously and what better way to do it than to take it out on his wife when voting for her awards. Then of course after they separated Mariah was pretty much the go-to joke for people who they wanted to tear down throughout the 90s. I mean, it still haunted her in 2006 when she had undeniably the best choice for album of the year but they still snubbed her.

Honestly I think only now that she is becoming a legacy artist is the industry starting to acknowledge her influence. And even now tbh she still has a long way to go. Sadly I think she will be long gone before people finally pay her her dues.


In the 90's, I think she went through two public perception phases that impeded her. The first was cheesy, bubblegum AC artist. A few dashes cooler than Celine Dion and with Tommy in the mix, butting industry heads in her name. The second phase was a 'slutty', demanding and difficult diva (lets be honest, with such a radical image change, Mariah could be seen as a bit extra from 97 - 99). Maybe neither of these images were seen as credible or worthy of award allocades.

Its totally bullsh!t of course. Mariah is incredibly talented, a 360 faceted artist and in the 90's, was innovating pop music in creative ways that redefined the genre forever.  

But I wonder if snobbery towards boring ballad bird and OTT sex kitten played a part.

Whatever the case, Mariah must surely be the most underrated and under awarded iconic, enduring artist in modern music. Which is criminal.
  

At that point she wasn't really appreciated for the role she played in defining the "hip pop" genre. I think she was perceived more as "genre jumping", to go through such an abrupt change. Even though us fans can clearly see her music taking more of an urban form gradually, the average joe just thought it was "Mariah the ballad queen trying to get more hits by renting lots of rappers to stay relevant". Time would show that the move was genuine, but people probably viewed it as being inauthentic in the late 90s and probably used that as an excuse to dismiss her.

It's interesting how Mariah had such a hard time getting accepted in the RnB world, even though she really was riding the cusp of that trend and played a big role in defining it. Yet when Whitney changed her style much later with MLIYL, she was accepted straight away. Was it just because Whitney's style and attitude fit the urban image? Or was Mariah's "light skinned" appearance a part in it?



Wrapped up in a shady tortilla

Quote    Reply   

#189 [url]

Aug 25 16 9:40 AM

I guess her skin color was and still is the biggest issue. Tommy and her image transition to a sexy diva also didn't help but let's face it. She will never have the same respect like Lauryn Hill, Alicia Keys or even Beyonce, You can see how they were praised in every single aspect, especially on their debut albums. Mariah never had that. TEOM was her closest moment of finally being accepted as an Rnb artist and for me that's because people realised it was not a phase.

Quote    Reply   
avatar

Kevon

Administrator

Posts: 40,357 'Showing receipts and offering seats'

#190 [url]

Aug 25 16 9:55 AM

I suppose Tommy did play a part in it because he made such a conscious effort to "whitewash" her image so when she finally started to show her own personality people didn't really buy it. The whole "white girls that sings black" image that they forced on her clearly had a huge impact and you can tell to this day that she resents it.



Wrapped up in a shady tortilla

Quote    Reply   
Remove this ad
avatar

carlos b fly

Administrator

Posts: 24,475 You'll never be ready. Memba I told you!

#191 [url]

Aug 25 16 10:53 AM

Kevon wrote:
carlos b fly wrote:
Kevon wrote:
^I think Tommy had a big thing to do with her lack of respect. Initially there was probably a lot of side eye because they were married. Tommy was known as being one of the most fearsome (and therefore probably disliked) men in the business. I reckon that things like award shows were probably the one place where people could probably kick him in the balls anonymously and what better way to do it than to take it out on his wife when voting for her awards. Then of course after they separated Mariah was pretty much the go-to joke for people who they wanted to tear down throughout the 90s. I mean, it still haunted her in 2006 when she had undeniably the best choice for album of the year but they still snubbed her.

Honestly I think only now that she is becoming a legacy artist is the industry starting to acknowledge her influence. And even now tbh she still has a long way to go. Sadly I think she will be long gone before people finally pay her her dues.


In the 90's, I think she went through two public perception phases that impeded her. The first was cheesy, bubblegum AC artist. A few dashes cooler than Celine Dion and with Tommy in the mix, butting industry heads in her name. The second phase was a 'slutty', demanding and difficult diva (lets be honest, with such a radical image change, Mariah could be seen as a bit extra from 97 - 99). Maybe neither of these images were seen as credible or worthy of award allocades.

Its totally bullsh!t of course. Mariah is incredibly talented, a 360 faceted artist and in the 90's, was innovating pop music in creative ways that redefined the genre forever.  

But I wonder if snobbery towards boring ballad bird and OTT sex kitten played a part.

Whatever the case, Mariah must surely be the most underrated and under awarded iconic, enduring artist in modern music. Which is criminal.
  


It's interesting how Mariah had such a hard time getting accepted in the RnB world, even though she really was riding the cusp of that trend and played a big role in defining it. Yet when Whitney changed her style much later with MLIYL, she was accepted straight away. Was it just because Whitney's style and attitude fit the urban image? Or was Mariah's "light skinned" appearance a part in it?

Is it just me that never saw Whitney as a really credible RnB artist? I don't think Whitney had anywhere near the love, understanding or true rooting in the genre as Mariah. Not even in the 90's. Yes, MLIYL was a fantastic album with a really worked sound that complimented her perfectly and organically, but I never saw Whitney as a viable vanguard for the genre like Mariah. I don't even think she's as respected in the genre as Mariah, due to her lack of contributions to it.  
  

Quote    Reply   
avatar

mcfan

Posts: 34,981

#Beautiful

#192 [url]

Aug 25 16 11:14 AM

Whitney was more of a traditional R&B artist from the start. She lacked the contemporary edge until MLIYL and that was really the only point in her career when she dabbled into the new sounds, but her Gospel roots made her a credible R&B singer. The Preacher's Wife is some of her most respected work, in fact.

Of course, Whitney was pretty absent from the music scene in the 90s aside from Bodyguard, but that was a Pop record. I find it strange that Whitney was boo'd in 1988 at Soul Train for being too Pop, but then Bodyguard was so massive and none of the singles were really R&B.

  
  

Quote    Reply   
avatar

carlos b fly

Administrator

Posts: 24,475 You'll never be ready. Memba I told you!

#193 [url]

Aug 25 16 11:17 AM

mcfan wrote:
Whitney was more of a traditional R&B artist from the start. She lacked the contemporary edge until MLIYL and that was really the only point in her career when she dabbled into the new sounds, but her Gospel roots made her a credible R&B singer.


Yes, true. I guess I'm looking at her as a more contemporary R&B artist like Mariah.

  

Quote    Reply   
avatar

Kevon

Administrator

Posts: 40,357 'Showing receipts and offering seats'

#194 [url]

Aug 26 16 2:29 AM

Yeah to me Mariah was definitely a more credible RnB singer. However I think the average joe probably didn't see it that way. I do think that Whitney's voice and style naturally lent itself to RnB well and probably more than Mariah which had a big play in it too. Mariah's core strength in addition to being able to belt was her softer tones and vulnerability in her voice. Whitney had that sassy attitude into her style of singing that works really well with the genre. Her voice and singing style was perfect for songs like 'I Learned From The Best' or 'It's Not Right But It's Ok'

I would have loved to have heard Mariah do My Love Is Your Love though I think she could have probably carried that song with more conviction than Whitney due to it being a softer record.

Quote    Reply   
avatar

carlos b fly

Administrator

Posts: 24,475 You'll never be ready. Memba I told you!

#195 [url]

Aug 26 16 10:53 AM

Kevon wrote:


I would have loved to have heard Mariah do My Love Is Your Love though I think she could have probably carried that song with more conviction than Whitney due to it being a softer record.

Yeah, that would have been interesting, wouldn't it. Its a very melodic, rhythmic based song so I think it would have suited Mariah well. Same for Exhale (although I think Mariah's more vulnerable tone wouldn't have been able to sell the wisdom of that songs lyrics, something Whitney's sterner delivery did so well).
  

Quote    Reply   
avatar

mcfan

Posts: 34,981

#Beautiful

#198 [url]

Jun 27 17 11:38 AM

Ressurrecting this! 


New topic: "Whenever You Call"

I was listening to "Whenever You Call" earlier and I had a thought that probably Mariah wrote the song with the intention of it being a duet, but it didn't come to fruition until later on. Has she ever talked about the song?

I like the song, but it must've been one of the first ones she write for the Butterfly album. It is way more AC than the other ballads. Anyway, I really think it works best as a duet. The lyrics have a certain male appeal imo when you listen to them closely. 

  
  

Quote    Reply   

#199 [url]

Jun 27 17 11:50 AM

In my top 10 of all-time from Mariah. Perhaps her best vocal performance on record? It's gotta be one of the greatest vocals ever by anyone, period.

Gorgeous melody, nice production. Sure, lyrics are occasionally saccharine, but I actually find the chorus to be beautifully written and timeless.

Was this ever in contention to be a single? I guess I can't imagine it as a single from Butterfly, but had it been released sometime in the early-mid 90's I think it would've been another #1 for her.

Quote    Reply   

#200 [url]

Jun 27 17 1:20 PM

Ooh, nice topic!

I agree, Whenever You Call sounds really good as a duet, and does kind of stand out on the record (as in, it's different than the rest of the album).
Vocals-wise, it' definitely one of her best performances, I believe. The runs are all on point, and there are so many of them! She must have sung at least 500 notes in this song alone (I have no idea actually, this is just a wild guess, but you get the point).
You'd think the song would be headache-inducing with all those flourishes, but it mostly works, due to Mariah's dulcet timbre and the gliding quality of the licks and runs (or Whatever You Call them).



__    __    __    __    __    __    __    __    __    __    __    __    __    __

Charmbracelet is my favorite MC album. DEAL WIT IT

Quote    Reply   
Remove this ad
Add Reply

Quick Reply

bbcode help