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MisplacedValidity

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#21 [url]

Jan 28 14 2:12 PM

mcfan wrote:

For one I hardly think songs like 'Underneath the Stars' or 'Never Forget You' were heavily promoted by Sony at Urban radio. The focus was more on their Pop counterparts 'Forever' and 'Without You'.  

'Anytime You Need a Friend' was her first underperforming single at Pop radio, it was not going to do amazing at Urban radio.

'Crybaby' cannot be used as a valid example at all. It was released between all the drama and as Nick said it got to where it got thanks to West Coast support alone, which is considerable.
The Butterfly era was also handled poorly in general by Sony after 'Honey' (#4). 'Breakdown' was #13 on R&B Airplay though and 'My All' was another top 20 hit.

After TEOM, Mariah released poppy singles and I'm not surprised they didn't support them after 'Touch My Body' (#2). It was like Mariah had done a loyalty deal with them (talking about how R&B success was important to her, how her wins in the R&B categories at the Grammys meant more, releasing a format-specific single) only to break it shortly after.
'Bye Bye' was entirely too Pop for the Urban landscape at the time; 'I'll Be Lovin'U Long Time' was a bigger hit at Rhythmic but by then the flop curse was in full force.
'Obsessed' is the only single I think they didn't support enough.

I also believe that Mariah's labels have done a terrible job with Urban AC radio, often not bothering to send her songs there. After 'Fly Like a Bird' they should've started catering to that format more imo. Half of the Memoirs album would've been played by those stations, but they didn't even try.   

If R&B radio truly loved her, she wouldn't need a lot of promotion to do well.

In re: to "AYNAF" are you saying R&B radio followed Pop's lead? That's how it reads.

How many West Coast stations played "Crybaby?"

You basically have excuses for every song smiley: roll The reality is, though, if R&B radio was truly supportive of her they would have jumped on some of those singles regardless.

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mcfan

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Jan 28 14 3:41 PM

MisplacedValidity wrote:
mcfan wrote:

For one I hardly think songs like 'Underneath the Stars' or 'Never Forget You' were heavily promoted by Sony at Urban radio. The focus was more on their Pop counterparts 'Forever' and 'Without You'.  

'Anytime You Need a Friend' was her first underperforming single at Pop radio, it was not going to do amazing at Urban radio.

'Crybaby' cannot be used as a valid example at all. It was released between all the drama and as Nick said it got to where it got thanks to West Coast support alone, which is considerable.
The Butterfly era was also handled poorly in general by Sony after 'Honey' (#4). 'Breakdown' was #13 on R&B Airplay though and 'My All' was another top 20 hit.

After TEOM, Mariah released poppy singles and I'm not surprised they didn't support them after 'Touch My Body' (#2). It was like Mariah had done a loyalty deal with them (talking about how R&B success was important to her, how her wins in the R&B categories at the Grammys meant more, releasing a format-specific single) only to break it shortly after.
'Bye Bye' was entirely too Pop for the Urban landscape at the time; 'I'll Be Lovin'U Long Time' was a bigger hit at Rhythmic but by then the flop curse was in full force.
'Obsessed' is the only single I think they didn't support enough.

I also believe that Mariah's labels have done a terrible job with Urban AC radio, often not bothering to send her songs there. After 'Fly Like a Bird' they should've started catering to that format more imo. Half of the Memoirs album would've been played by those stations, but they didn't even try.   

If R&B radio truly loved her, she wouldn't need a lot of promotion to do well.

In re: to "AYNAF" are you saying R&B radio followed Pop's lead? That's how it reads.

How many West Coast stations played "Crybaby?"

You basically have excuses for every song smiley: roll The reality is, though, if R&B radio was truly supportive of her they would have jumped on some of those singles regardless.

If all you got from my post is that I have excuses for everything, then I'm truly disappointed. 
For some reason, you are refusing to think that your point of view may be inaccurate and it's not usual of you.

Everything isn't black or white. I'm trying to provide a different point of view. I don't think I typed a bunch of nonsense here.

The truth of the matter is, it all comes down to how Mariah has been perceived throughout her career: while her debut and Emotions was received well by R&B radio, by 1993 she was way marketed in a more Pop-oriented way. Then when she started making R&B music again she started being received quite well again. Radio won't play songs their listeners don't want to hear and that was especially true in Mariah's heyday (not now that it's all about politics). Those songs you mentioned were probably received poorly because Mariah's image went towards another direction at the time. In any case her history with R&B radio is not to be dismissed like you did. It's probably more consistent than her history with CHR who abandoned her as soon as she changed her image and never really embraced her again until she had a HUGE album. Look how fickle it has been since 1997.
  

  
  

Last Edited By: mcfan Jan 28 14 4:03 PM. Edited 1 time.

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#23 [url]

Jan 28 14 6:22 PM

mcfan wrote:
The truth of the matter is, it all comes down to how Mariah has been perceived throughout her career: while her debut and Emotions was received well by R&B radio, by 1993 she was way marketed in a more Pop-oriented way. Then when she started making R&B music again she started being received quite well again. Those songs you mentioned were probably received poorly because Mariah's image went towards another direction at the time. In any case her history with R&B radio is not to be dismissed like you did.  

That's a good point! Well explained

Also, I understand that the R&B Remix of this song may be a boring looped drum beat but I still like it. I like how the vocals stand out and I prefer the beat even if it's generic. I just prefer r&b music in general. Im sure it was just something different at the time and wasn't a remix meant to be put out to radio to help the single (i dont think). The whole pop/r&b battle makes me uncomfortable because sometimes it feels that it's connected to the perception and image of race.

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MisplacedValidity

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#24 [url]

Jan 29 14 4:45 PM

mcfan wrote:
MisplacedValidity wrote:
mcfan wrote:

For one I hardly think songs like 'Underneath the Stars' or 'Never Forget You' were heavily promoted by Sony at Urban radio. The focus was more on their Pop counterparts 'Forever' and 'Without You'.  

'Anytime You Need a Friend' was her first underperforming single at Pop radio, it was not going to do amazing at Urban radio.

'Crybaby' cannot be used as a valid example at all. It was released between all the drama and as Nick said it got to where it got thanks to West Coast support alone, which is considerable.
The Butterfly era was also handled poorly in general by Sony after 'Honey' (#4). 'Breakdown' was #13 on R&B Airplay though and 'My All' was another top 20 hit.

After TEOM, Mariah released poppy singles and I'm not surprised they didn't support them after 'Touch My Body' (#2). It was like Mariah had done a loyalty deal with them (talking about how R&B success was important to her, how her wins in the R&B categories at the Grammys meant more, releasing a format-specific single) only to break it shortly after.
'Bye Bye' was entirely too Pop for the Urban landscape at the time; 'I'll Be Lovin'U Long Time' was a bigger hit at Rhythmic but by then the flop curse was in full force.
'Obsessed' is the only single I think they didn't support enough.

I also believe that Mariah's labels have done a terrible job with Urban AC radio, often not bothering to send her songs there. After 'Fly Like a Bird' they should've started catering to that format more imo. Half of the Memoirs album would've been played by those stations, but they didn't even try.   

If R&B radio truly loved her, she wouldn't need a lot of promotion to do well.

In re: to "AYNAF" are you saying R&B radio followed Pop's lead? That's how it reads.

How many West Coast stations played "Crybaby?"

You basically have excuses for every song smiley: roll The reality is, though, if R&B radio was truly supportive of her they would have jumped on some of those singles regardless.

If all you got from my post is that I have excuses for everything, then I'm truly disappointed. 
For some reason, you are refusing to think that your point of view may be inaccurate and it's not usual of you. ohwell.gif

Everything isn't black or white. I'm trying to provide a different point of view. I don't think I typed a bunch of nonsense here.

The truth of the matter is, it all comes down to how Mariah has been perceived throughout her career: while her debut and Emotions was received well by R&B radio, by 1993 she was way marketed in a more Pop-oriented way. Then when she started making R&B music again she started being received quite well again. Radio won't play songs their listeners don't want to hear and that was especially true in Mariah's heyday (not now that it's all about politics). Those songs you mentioned were probably received poorly because Mariah's image went towards another direction at the time. In any case her history with R&B radio is not to be dismissed like you did. It's probably more consistent than her history with CHR who abandoned her as soon as she changed her image and never really embraced her again until she had a HUGE album. Look how fickle it has been since 1997.
  

Couldn't I say the same to you re: a refusal to not think your viewpoint is inaccurate?

At any rate, your explanations only prove my point. Urban radio has never given Mariah automatic support. You saying certain songs didn't do well because they weren't promoted, some songs didn't do well because they hadn't done well at Pop radio, and then other songs didn't do well because of drama and other things means that everything (promotion, image, hype) has to align for Mariah to get Urban support.

Has she ever had a song do well at Urban that flopped at other formats? Has she ever had a song that was sent to Urban formats only do well? "Breakdown" comes closest, though it didn't make the top 10.

When you look at all of that, it isn't an overly supportive format, then. I don't see how I am being irrational in making that conclusion. Mariah isn't automatic at that format. Where is evidence to the contrary?

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mcfan

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Jan 29 14 4:54 PM

^ I never said you were irrational. We are discussing a topic, I'm not here to attack you.

I just found it strange that all you had to say was laugh it off as excuses. It's not typical of you.

  
  

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MisplacedValidity

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#26 [url]

Jan 29 14 5:07 PM

mcfan wrote:

The truth of the matter is, it all comes down to how Mariah has been perceived throughout her career: while her debut and Emotions was received well by R&B radio, by 1993 she was way marketed in a more Pop-oriented way. Then when she started making R&B music again she started being received quite well again. Radio won't play songs their listeners don't want to hear and that was especially true in Mariah's heyday (not now that it's all about politics). Those songs you mentioned were probably received poorly because Mariah's image went towards another direction at the time. In any case her history with R&B radio is not to be dismissed like you did. It's probably more consistent than her history with CHR who abandoned her as soon as she changed her image and never really embraced her again until she had a HUGE album. Look how fickle it has been since 1997.   

I don't think things from the 90s are exactly relevant at this point, anyway. Let's look at her Urban airplay peaks post-Rainbow, though probably only the last 5-10 years are truly relevant.

Wikipedia doesn't list her R&B Airplay peaks for most songs. Do you have that information? I'd love to see the peaks for her songs on that chart, and more so separating Urban and Urban AC.

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mcfan

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#27 [url]

Jan 29 14 5:17 PM

MisplacedValidity wrote:
mcfan wrote:

The truth of the matter is, it all comes down to how Mariah has been perceived throughout her career: while her debut and Emotions was received well by R&B radio, by 1993 she was way marketed in a more Pop-oriented way. Then when she started making R&B music again she started being received quite well again. Radio won't play songs their listeners don't want to hear and that was especially true in Mariah's heyday (not now that it's all about politics). Those songs you mentioned were probably received poorly because Mariah's image went towards another direction at the time. In any case her history with R&B radio is not to be dismissed like you did. It's probably more consistent than her history with CHR who abandoned her as soon as she changed her image and never really embraced her again until she had a HUGE album. Look how fickle it has been since 1997.   

I don't think things from the 90s are exactly relevant at this point, anyway. Let's look at her Urban airplay peaks post-Rainbow, though probably only the last 5-10 years are truly relevant.

Wikipedia doesn't list her R&B Airplay peaks for most songs. Do you have that information? I'd love to see the peaks for her songs on that chart, and more so separating Urban and Urban AC.
http://www.mariahjournal.com/infozone/charts/singles/usa/index.shtml

  
  

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#28 [url]

Jan 29 14 5:50 PM

mcfan wrote:
MisplacedValidity wrote:  
I don't think things from the 90s are exactly relevant at this point, anyway. Let's look at her Urban airplay peaks post-Rainbow, though probably only the last 5-10 years are truly relevant.

Wikipedia doesn't list her R&B Airplay peaks for most songs. Do you have that information? I'd love to see the peaks for her songs on that chart, and more so separating Urban and Urban AC.
http://www.mariahjournal.com/infozone/charts/singles/usa/index.shtml


Thank you! So...

"Loverboy" - #31
"Don't Stop" - #42
"Boy (I Need You)" - #72 (had no idea it flopped so hard)
"IKWYW" - #3 (but thank Busta)
"UMMW" - #8
"It's Like That" - #17
"We Belong Together" - #1
"Shake It Off" - #2
"Don't Forget About Us" - #1
"Fly Like A Bird" - #19
"Lil LOVE" - #66
"Touch My Body" - #2
"Bye Bye" - #33
"IBLULT" - #36
"I Stay In Love" - missed chart
"My Love" - the 30s, right? That ruined a streak for The-Dream
"Obsessed" - #12?
"IWTKWLI" - #40? (this was obviously pop, though)
"HATEU" - did it miss the chart?
"Up Out My Face" - around #39
"Angels Cry" - missed chart (not sure how it was promoted)
"Triumphant" - 30s? I can't tell
"#Beautiful" - 20s? 30s?

So in the past decade, Mariah's only top 10s on R&B/Hip-Hop Airplay were the middle three singles from TEOM and then "Touch My Body." In the 5 years prior to that, her only hits there were two guest spots. She hasn't had anything in the past decade go top 10 at Urban that didn't also go top 10 at Top 40 and Rhythmic, but she has had songs go top 10 at Top 40 and Rhythmic that didn't go top 10 at Urban ("Bye Bye" and/or "Obsessed").

My initial point that started this discussion was simply to say I think some fans overestimate the support Urban radio has for Mariah (some have even said she shouldn't worry about mainstream success and just cater to her R&B audience). These stats reveal Mariah is by no means an automatic for Urban radio.

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mcfan

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#29 [url]

Jan 29 14 6:04 PM

^ For 'I Stay In Love', 'My Love', 'H.A.T.E.U.', 'Angels Cry' (#90) and 'Triumphant' (#46) the peak is the same as R&B/Hip-Hop Songs. 'Up Out My Face' peaked at #38.

'#Beautiful' also went top 10 at Rhythmic, but not Urban (#21). It peaked at #30 on R&B/Hip-Hop Airplay. 

'Obsessed' peaked at #8 at Urban radio (spin-based), but #12 on the R&B chart (audience-based).   

Others:
Mine Again - #67
When Christmas Comes - #59 (#14 Urban Adult)

  
  

Last Edited By: mcfan Jan 29 14 6:12 PM. Edited 1 time.

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mcfan

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#31 [url]

Jan 29 14 6:52 PM

I wouldn't go as far as saying she can't count on them. For one because Urban radio is not as ageist as Pop radio and we all know Mariah's age (both biological and in terms of career) is going to affect her there.

  
  

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MisplacedValidity

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#32 [url]

Jan 29 14 7:00 PM

mcfan wrote:
I wouldn't go as far as saying she can't count on them. For one because Urban radio is not as ageist as Pop radio and we all know Mariah's age (both biological and in terms of career) is going to affect her there.

She might can count on them to give her top 30 airplay, but that isn't going to sell many albums. Again, she hasn't been a true staple at Urban radio in like 15 years outside of a few TEOM singles. And again, even in the 90s she struggled at R&B radio with true R&B singles like "Never Forget You," "AYNAF," "Underneath The Stars," and "Crybaby." Outside of maybe her first album or two, she's never been able to count on Urban radio for automatic support.

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mcfan

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#35 [url]

Jan 31 14 8:02 AM

MisplacedValidity wrote:
mcfan wrote:
I wouldn't go as far as saying she can't count on them. For one because Urban radio is not as ageist as Pop radio and we all know Mariah's age (both biological and in terms of career) is going to affect her there.

She might can count on them to give her top 30 airplay, but that isn't going to sell many albums.
It'll still be better than no CHR spins.

  
  

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