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esettle0

Posts: 21,140 Reflections of your love have come to wither

#3981 [url]

Jan 22 16 9:46 AM

MisplacedValidity wrote:
mcfan wrote:
Linda "old bitter hag" Perry has apologized by saying that she shouldn't have commented since she wasn't there when the song was written. Good, then stfu.

but again both Warren and Gaga have said Warren had written the song and Gaga came on later and changed a few things and more so was just credited on it to bring attention to the song. So, her getting an Oscar non for writing it still feels hollow.
where was this said? I'm just curious. Because u mentioned in a previous post  that 'someone' told you that and that you had to find where it was said at.

Anyways, if someone does write ONE line of a song, do u feel they should not get credit for writing the line? When it comes to song-writing credits, you can't allocate in the credits who wrote what part, all that contribute lyrics are songwriters.

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MisplacedValidity

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#3982 [url]

Jan 23 16 4:24 PM

esettle0 wrote:
MisplacedValidity wrote:
mcfan wrote:
Linda "old bitter hag" Perry has apologized by saying that she shouldn't have commented since she wasn't there when the song was written. Good, then stfu.

but again both Warren and Gaga have said Warren had written the song and Gaga came on later and changed a few things and more so was just credited on it to bring attention to the song. So, her getting an Oscar non for writing it still feels hollow.
where was this said? I'm just curious. Because u mentioned in a previous post  that 'someone' told you that and that you had to find where it was said at.

Anyways, if someone does write ONE line of a song, do u feel they should not get credit for writing the line? When it comes to song-writing credits, you can't allocate in the credits who wrote what part, all that contribute lyrics are songwriters.


I've read a few articles that came out pre-Oscars that talk about how Diane Warren was asked to write the song and did and how they wanted someone who would help the song get exposure so Gaga was brought in...after the song was written. I could look them up again, but you criticized me in the other thread for finding links so I assume you don't want me to do that anymore. Anyway the articles all say Gaga's involvement was mostly in the pacing of the song, which is really more of a production angle. Gaga is credited as the producer, so that makes sense. Interestingly the articles also mentioned other producers who helped in the recording, yet they did not receive a credit. So, Gaga received a writing credit she didn't deserve, yet producers didn't receive a production credit they did deserve. Go figure.

And, no, I don't think helping change 1 line of a song merits a writing credit. That's basically being an editor. Editors of books don't receive a writing credit. Actors who improvise during the filming of a movie or who change a few lines from how they are written don't receive a script writing credit.

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MisplacedValidity

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Posts: 39,802 He bites the metaphorical carrot.

#3984 [url]

Jan 23 16 4:38 PM

mcfan wrote:
If you write a line, you write it. I'd want credit.

Wanting something doesn't make it right smiley: wink

To me this is a really interesting discussion, and The Good Wife did an episode on it last week. The question is ultimately, where do you draw the line? For instance, if you are a writer and hear someone make a comment and it inspires a song, should that person who inspired you get a writing credit? If you're a painter and a friend or someone suggests you use a certain color for part of the painting, should they get credit for the painting? If I'm a female singer and find a song by a male writer and change the pronouns in the song and nothing else, do I get a writing credit? Where does it stop?

I think traditionally credit goes to the person/team who actively participate in the creation and evolution of the song. Sometimes someone may be called in for a re-write or something (a la Mariah with "#Beautiful") and then get a credit, too. But usually someone who essentially 'edits' a song or just gives a suggestion is not going to get a writing credit. If that were the case, songs would have like 20 writers because producers, execs, friends, and family often give feedback.

To get it back to Gaga specifically, would a non-celebrity have gotten a writing credit for that little of contribution? No. Gaga's name was put on it for marketing purposes, which to be fair worked. But for her to potentially be an Oscar winner because she helped write 1 sentence is pretty lame. Can we not agree on that at least? smiley: laugh

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mcfan

Posts: 34,687

#Beautiful

#3985 [url]

Jan 23 16 4:48 PM

You don't get credit for changing the pronouns, that's silly. But if a writer is stuck and the artist comes in and helps the writer overcome the obstacle by giving a lyrical idea, to me that warrants credit. And this may well be the situation with this song and other cases.

Editing a line and writing a line is different. Editing means something exists already and you are altering it, not creating. But if the editing is substantial and makes the song a lot better and polished, why not request credit for the work you did?

  
  

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MisplacedValidity

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Posts: 39,802 He bites the metaphorical carrot.

#3986 [url]

Jan 23 16 4:50 PM

mcfan wrote:
You don't get credit for changing the pronouns, that's silly. But if a writer is stuck and the artist comes in and helps the writer overcome the obstacle by giving a lyrical idea, to me that warrants credit. And this may well be the situation with this song and other cases.

Editing a line and writing a line is different. Editing means something exists already and you are altering it, not creating. But if the editing is substantial and makes the song a lot better and polished, why not request credit for the work you did?
Reports say Gaga helped "change" one line, which means something existed and she altered. So, using your statements there you now agree she doesn't deserve a credit. Cool.

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mcfan

Posts: 34,687

#Beautiful

#3987 [url]

Jan 23 16 4:59 PM

MisplacedValidity wrote:
mcfan wrote:
You don't get credit for changing the pronouns, that's silly. But if a writer is stuck and the artist comes in and helps the writer overcome the obstacle by giving a lyrical idea, to me that warrants credit. And this may well be the situation with this song and other cases.

Editing a line and writing a line is different. Editing means something exists already and you are altering it, not creating. But if the editing is substantial and makes the song a lot better and polished, why not request credit for the work you did?
Reports say Gaga helped "change" one line, which means something existed and she altered. So, using your statements there you now agree she doesn't deserve a credit. Cool.
If the reports say she "changed" the line, that means they are not exactly accurate. Unless it was Diane Warren who said it.

  

  
  

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carlos b fly

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Posts: 24,331 You'll never be ready. Memba I told you!

#3989 [url]

Jan 23 16 7:20 PM

MisplacedValidity wrote:
mcfan wrote:
If you write a line, you write it. I'd want credit.

Wanting something doesn't make it right smiley: wink

To me this is a really interesting discussion, and The Good Wife did an episode on it last week. The question is ultimately, where do you draw the line? For instance, if you are a writer and hear someone make a comment and it inspires a song, should that person who inspired you get a writing credit? If you're a painter and a friend or someone suggests you use a certain color for part of the painting, should they get credit for the painting? If I'm a female singer and find a song by a male writer and change the pronouns in the song and nothing else, do I get a writing credit? Where does it stop?

I think traditionally credit goes to the person/team who actively participate in the creation and evolution of the song. Sometimes someone may be called in for a re-write or something (a la Mariah with "#Beautiful") and then get a credit, too. But usually someone who essentially 'edits' a song or just gives a suggestion is not going to get a writing credit. If that were the case, songs would have like 20 writers because producers, execs, friends, and family often give feedback.

To get it back to Gaga specifically, would a non-celebrity have gotten a writing credit for that little of contribution? No. Gaga's name was put on it for marketing purposes, which to be fair worked. But for her to potentially be an Oscar winner because she helped write 1 sentence is pretty lame. Can we not agree on that at least? smiley: laugh



Good post, good question.

Funnily enough, I had this situation in work recently. Someone came up with an album campaign launch that was very clever and very much started with them. I fed a few ideas to expand it digitally and last week someone was suggesting it was my idea and how clever it was. I stopped them right away and said the real core of the idea came from someone else and they deserved the real credit/praise. I'm very funny about things like that.

In terms of a song, does literally changing one line in a song really add that much to the overall track? 

If you didn't and say the old line remained and it wasn't all that, would it really impact the rest of the song? The 98% you weren't involved with? Realistically you just want your fingerprint on it in some way for financial reasons and potential royalties. Its a pity there isn't more of a structure on these things, the same way TV production has regulations on how often an actor can contribute to a season before they legally are contributing enough to have to become a regular cast member on the required pay for that credit. Being able to change one bloody word or line and you're credited and due money has always struck me as daft. 

  

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carlos b fly

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Posts: 24,331 You'll never be ready. Memba I told you!

#3990 [url]

Jan 23 16 7:21 PM

BeyondIdolization wrote:
mcfan wrote:
If you write a line, you write it. I'd want credit.


Only a stan would say that.



Or someone with an eye for a cheque. You could literally push to change a single word for no reason other than to warrant a credit and the payout from it.

  

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mcfan

Posts: 34,687

#Beautiful

#3991 [url]

Jan 23 16 9:41 PM

BeyondIdolization wrote:
mcfan wrote:
If you write a line, you write it. I'd want credit.

Only a stan would say that.
A stan for who?

Don't act like you wouldn't take the money and run with it in a situation like that.

    

  
  

Last Edited By: mcfan Jan 23 16 9:44 PM. Edited 1 time.

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MisplacedValidity

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#3992 [url]

Jan 23 16 10:29 PM

mcfan wrote:

Don't act like you wouldn't take the money and run with it in a situation like that. laugh.gif
    
Whether someone would or wouldn't is irrelevant, isn't it? Someone could easily counter and say "What if your poured your energy and passion into a song that as all yours and then someone came along and changed 1 line and got co-writing credit and a lot of the royalties?" Most people would resent that happening, so where does that leave us?

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Gospelartist03

Posts: 1,715 Chillin' at FOMM

#3993 [url]

Jan 24 16 2:17 AM

the report actually says the song was pretty much finished And Gaga changed the song more melodically than the lyrics. So she is a co-writer for taking the song and making it more relevant and work for the movie... Considering Gaga has written several hit songs as the lead writer I don't think she was being desperate in that way just to get a tag along credit, and Warren certainly has enough money and clients not to be that desperate 


I personally take it at face value, Gaga contributed enough to the lyrics and melody to be a co-writer and as someone mentioned since there is no percentage breakdown on credits this is fair.  And lets not forget there would be no oscar to discuss if she didn't make the song what it became.

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mcfan

Posts: 34,687

#Beautiful

#3994 [url]

Jan 24 16 7:56 AM

MisplacedValidity wrote:
mcfan wrote:

Don't act like you wouldn't take the money and run with it in a situation like that. laugh.gif
Whether someone would or wouldn't is irrelevant, isn't it? Someone could easily counter and say "What if your poured your energy and passion into a song that as all yours and then someone came along and changed 1 line and got co-writing credit and a lot of the royalties?" Most people would resent that happening, so where does that leave us?
What I told David was a joke.

I don't really care about any of this, I'm not a songwriter and I'll never be one because I don't have the talent it takes. I really couldn't care less.
I know we're having a discussion and I've expressed my opinion on this too, but that's it. Lady Gaga is not Mariah, I'm not that invested so I'm sorry if I'm not answering your questions.  

And at the end of the day, it was Diane Warren who decided to give Gaga credit. I mean she could've said NO. The song may not even win the damn Oscar (and I'm actually predicting it won't).  

  
  

Last Edited By: mcfan Jan 24 16 7:58 AM. Edited 1 time.

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MisplacedValidity

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Posts: 39,802 He bites the metaphorical carrot.

#3995 [url]

Jan 24 16 10:56 AM

Gaga performed at the PGA Awards last night. She's gunning for the Oscar. She's almost as desperate as Leo.

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carlos b fly

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Posts: 24,331 You'll never be ready. Memba I told you!

#3996 [url]

Jan 24 16 3:49 PM

MisplacedValidity wrote:
mcfan wrote:

Don't act like you wouldn't take the money and run with it in a situation like that. laugh.gif
    
Whether someone would or wouldn't is irrelevant, isn't it? Someone could easily counter and say "What if your poured your energy and passion into a song that as all yours and then someone came along and changed 1 line and got co-writing credit and a lot of the royalties?" Most people would resent that happening, so where does that leave us?


If it were a case of cost per contribution I think it would be less issue but payments just get split more and more evenly the more and more contributors get credited. Basically, if I came in and changed your song on one word or slightly altered a verse, Jason would walk away with say 200k and so would I for far less work. If it was like, I got a grand and no more it would at least reflect what I did (or in this case, didn't) put in.
  

Last Edited By: carlos b fly Jan 24 16 3:59 PM. Edited 1 time.

#3997 [url]

Jan 24 16 4:28 PM

mcfan wrote:
And at the end of the day, it was Diane Warren who decided to give Gaga credit. I mean she could've said NO. The song may not even win the damn Oscar (and I'm actually predicting it won't).  
This. Not only did she give Gaga credit, but she even went on social media to defend her during this. If she didn't feel Gaga deserved the credit, she could have just kept quiet.

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BeyondIdolization

Posts: 26,262

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#3998 [url]

Jan 24 16 6:29 PM

jamiclever wrote:
mcfan wrote:
And at the end of the day, it was Diane Warren who decided to give Gaga credit. I mean she could've said NO. The song may not even win the damn Oscar (and I'm actually predicting it won't).  
This. Not only did she give Gaga credit, but she even went on social media to defend her during this. If she didn't feel Gaga deserved the credit, she could have just kept quiet.

That's naive. Diane wants the Oscar, plus it's not in her best interest to bash a major artist anyway.

  


  

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Gospelartist03

Posts: 1,715 Chillin' at FOMM

#3999 [url]

Jan 24 16 8:12 PM

^^ but Diane is a power player and has been writing hits for decades, even if she is not hot right now , I don't see why she would be afraid of Gaga it doesn't add up. Listening to her perform it you can clearly hear Gaga's input in the melody.

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BeyondIdolization

Posts: 26,262

May we always be together...
In the sands of time

#4000 [url]

Jan 24 16 8:15 PM

Gospelartist03 wrote:
^^ but Diane is a power player and has been writing hits for decades, even if she is not hot right now , I don't see why she would be afraid of Gaga it doesn't add up. Listening to her perform it you can clearly hear Gaga's input in the melody. 



Of course it adds up. No one is checking for Diane Warren.


  

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