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MisplacedValidity

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Nov 17 08 7:20 PM

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FOTF is the group primarily responsible for Prop 8 and its passing. Interestingly, they are now having to layoff more than 200 people, which brings their total to 950. They of course pumped all kinds of money into getting Prop 8 passed. You can read about the financial stuff here.

Now they are turning their sights on "Christmas" and its usage in stores (they want the term used). They are actually asking people to not shop at stores that used a general greeting like "Happy Holidays" or something. You can read more about that here.

http://friendsofmariahmessageboard.yuku.com/sreply/690834/New-Album-Discussion#collapseThreeReply690834

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NhWxMaN

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Nov 17 08 8:27 PM

well, James Dobson is anything but a nutcase. He is nothing like the late Jerry Fallwell. If someone looks at marriage as being a religous / spiritual union than it is more then likely they will vote against gays being married. and not to go off topic, but i get really irritated when some homosexuals try to equal themselves to what the african americans went through during the 60s/70s.

As far as "Christmas", i personally think it is stupid for stores not to say christmas, but i wouldn't go to the stretch that his group and fox news have gone.

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MisplacedValidity

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Nov 17 08 8:39 PM

^ Why is it stupid for stores not to say it when there are other religious holidays that go on at the time? What if all stores suddenly started advertising "Happy Hunnukah" and said nothing about Christmas? I bet Christians would get pissed then. It seems like many of them want it the way they want it but don't accomodate others. Plus, a lot of people celebrate the festivities of the holidays while not necessarily celebrating the strict meaning of 'Christmas.'

And I understand the religious issue of gay marriage, but no one is asking churches to marry homosexuals, so I don't get the big deal. It's primarily about equal rights (i.e. taxes, health care, etc.). What right is it of Dobson to say I can't marry another male and get the same health care coverage, tax incentives, etc. that other married couples do? How does my getting married directly affect him? Since they don't want gay couples to marry, can gay couples stop paying taxes that go to the health care coverage, schools, etc. for straight people? Wait. They probably want our money, just not to give us rights image image

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Last Edited By: MisplacedValidity Nov 17 08 8:42 PM. Edited 1 time.

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rainbow1199

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Nov 17 08 8:54 PM

MisplacedValidity wrote:
^ Why is it stupid for stores not to say it when there are other religious holidays that go on at the time? What if all stores suddenly started advertising "Happy Hunnukah" and said nothing about Christmas? I bet Christians would get pissed then. It seems like many of them want it the way they want it but don't accomodate others. Plus, a lot of people celebrate the festivities of the holidays while not necessarily celebrating the strict meaning of 'Christmas.'

And I understand the religious issue of gay marriage, but no one is asking churches to marry homosexuals, so I don't get the big deal. It's primarily about equal rights (i.e. taxes, health care, etc.). What right is it of Dobson to say I can't marry another male and get the same health care coverage, tax incentives, etc. that other married couples do? How does my getting married directly affect him? Since they don't want gay couples to marry, can gay couples stop paying taxes that go to the health care coverage, schools, etc. for straight people? Wait. They probably want our money, just not to give us rights image image


Agreed on both points. The problem with these Christian groups is that they want the whole world to go along with their beliefs- that because they believe gay marriage is wrong, the government must as well, and because they celebrate Christmas, Jews should just shut up about their inferior holiday or something.

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MisplacedValidity

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Nov 17 08 9:03 PM

^ Right. The thing is, I can understand Christians wanting to spread their message and have everyone share their beliefs (to an extent we probably all want that), but forcing it on other people - and limiting what other people can express - is not the right way to do that. Imagine if Buddhism suddenly grew and people wanted to put Buddhist principles in courthouses and wanted meditation time in schools. I bet Christians would protest that, yet they want the Ten Commandments on courthouses and want prayer in school. It's hypocritical.

Having said that, I am more than willing to admit that Christians get a lot of flack for no other reason than they are the majority religion in the U.S. However, the Constitution was set up to protect the minority because the majority will take care of itself. At some point or another, we will all be in a minority group, and that's the group that needs protecting. If you don't protect the minority, then we all get lost.

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BeyondIdolization

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Nov 17 08 10:08 PM

Focus On The Family? . Only in America.

I agree with everything that's being said in this thread (except for Caleb's extremely ignorant post).

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MisplacedValidity

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Nov 17 08 10:26 PM

^ I don't think calling someone "ignorant" gives your viewpoint or post much weight. I mean, if you want Christians to respect people, you should offer the same back, no?

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rainbow1199

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Nov 17 08 10:38 PM

Not that the struggles of African Americans and gays can really be compared, but it *is* sad that in 2008 we can elect a black president but three states outlaw gay marriage. People simply need to separate their religious beliefs from denying people civil rights. I don't think all the people who voted for Prop 8 are bad per se, I think they were just confused by the propaganda-spewing Mormons.

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NhWxMaN

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Nov 17 08 11:13 PM

MisplacedValidity wrote:
^ Why is it stupid for stores not to say it when there are other religious holidays that go on at the time? What if all stores suddenly started advertising "Happy Hunnukah" and said nothing about Christmas? I bet Christians would get pissed then. It seems like many of them want it the way they want it but don't accomodate others. Plus, a lot of people celebrate the festivities of the holidays while not necessarily celebrating the strict meaning of 'Christmas.'

And I understand the religious issue of gay marriage, but no one is asking churches to marry homosexuals, so I don't get the big deal. It's primarily about equal rights (i.e. taxes, health care, etc.). What right is it of Dobson to say I can't marry another male and get the same health care coverage, tax incentives, etc. that other married couples do? How does my getting married directly affect him? Since they don't want gay couples to marry, can gay couples stop paying taxes that go to the health care coverage, schools, etc. for straight people? Wait. They probably want our money, just not to give us rights image image

because Christmas has been said for hundreds of years up through this millenium. its stupid to all of a sudden change it. i've seen major stores still have Happy Hunnukah signs so why cant they say Merry Christmas? I dont get bothered by it. i dont get why people are all of a sudden getting offended by it. As far as Dobson, marriage is written throughout the Bible as being male / female and in the end a religous ceremony. The foundation of this country is based on christian principles. So if you put the two together then many will think that the constitution writes it as being based on what I said. Being that it doesnt truly state anything then I think it should be clearly defined.

((Did you ignore the effect that the black voters had on the prop 8 vote?? Per CNN, had they not come out in droves then the law would have passed.))

Last Edited By: NhWxMaN Nov 17 08 11:19 PM. Edited 2 times.

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BeyondIdolization

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Nov 17 08 11:21 PM

NhWxMaN wrote:
MisplacedValidity wrote:
^ Why is it stupid for stores not to say it when there are other religious holidays that go on at the time? What if all stores suddenly started advertising "Happy Hunnukah" and said nothing about Christmas? I bet Christians would get pissed then. It seems like many of them want it the way they want it but don't accomodate others. Plus, a lot of people celebrate the festivities of the holidays while not necessarily celebrating the strict meaning of 'Christmas.'

And I understand the religious issue of gay marriage, but no one is asking churches to marry homosexuals, so I don't get the big deal. It's primarily about equal rights (i.e. taxes, health care, etc.). What right is it of Dobson to say I can't marry another male and get the same health care coverage, tax incentives, etc. that other married couples do? How does my getting married directly affect him? Since they don't want gay couples to marry, can gay couples stop paying taxes that go to the health care coverage, schools, etc. for straight people? Wait. They probably want our money, just not to give us rights image image

As far as Dobson, marriage is written throughout the Bible as being male / female and in the end a religous ceremony. The foundation of this country is based on christian principles. So if you put the two together then many will think that the constitution writes it as being based on what I said. Being that it doesnt truly state anything then I think it should be clearly defined.
But Church and State are supposed to be separate, aren't they? So that argument is invalid.

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MisplacedValidity

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Nov 18 08 12:12 AM

NhWxMaN wrote:
because Christmas has been said for hundreds of years up through this millenium. its stupid to all of a sudden change it. i've seen major stores still have Happy Hunnukah signs so why cant they say Merry Christmas? I dont get bothered by it. i dont get why people are all of a sudden getting offended by it. As far as Dobson, marriage is written throughout the Bible as being male / female and in the end a religous ceremony. The foundation of this country is based on christian principles. So if you put the two together then many will think that the constitution writes it as being based on what I said. Being that it doesnt truly state anything then I think it should be clearly defined.

((Did you ignore the effect that the black voters had on the prop 8 vote?? Per CNN, had they not come out in droves then the law would have passed.))
The Constitution also calls for a separation of church and state, and since the only argument against gay marriage is a religious/church one, it stands to reason the prohibition of gay marriage is unconstitutional (which is what the California Supreme Court held and why Prop 8 is likely to be overturned by the courts).

If we were simply talking about "marriage," then most homosexuals wouldn't care about getting married since "marriage" is a church thing. That isn't what the debate it about. Our legal system affords certain rights to married people, and thus it's about equality under the law. Civil unions don't offer the same rights as an actual marriage. So, if we were to do away with "marriage" as the basis for health coverage (i.e. being covered by a spouse's health care), custody of children on the occasion of death, tax incentives, etc. then it wouldn't be a big deal and Christians could have "marriage" as they see fit. But as long as the law recognizes "marriage" differently than other forms of union, there will be this issue about gay marriage. And like I said, Christians apparently see no problem taxing homosexuals and using that money to pay for schools, health care, etc. so why shouldn't homosexuals get to partake in what their own tax money is paying for? Really, single people should be upset that we are discriminated against under the law because married people get a lot of things single people don't (and I don't just mean wedding showers).

As far as Dobson, marriage is written throughout the Bible as being male / female and in the end a religous ceremony.

The Bible also says Jesus' followers shouldn't be shouting on street corners, yet I saw Prop 8 supporters doing that. The Bible also condemns adultery, lying, stealing, etc. Plenty of people do those things, yet I don't see FOTF trying to deny marriage to known adulterers or known thiefs. I also don't see FOTF trying to deny marriage to someone like Elizabeth Taylor, and you can't tell me her 8 marriages somehow upholds the sanctity of marriage more than two homosexuals getting married. It's clear to me that, for whatever reason, abortion and gay marriage are the two token issues for Christians, even though the Bible purports that all sin is the same.

In terms of the other discussion, I'm not sure "Christmas" has just now become an issue. It's always been an issue. Probably it has become a larger issue as we get more immigrants into the country who aren't Christian. The U.S. is becoming more diverse, not less diverse. To that extent, we need to start being more inclusive, but churches are trying to hold on to their power and traditions. It's not going to work.

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Last Edited By: MisplacedValidity Nov 18 08 12:17 AM. Edited 1 time.

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mariahfan150

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Nov 18 08 7:05 AM

BeyondIdolization wrote:

MisplacedValidity wrote:
The Constitution also calls for a separation of church and state, and since the only argument against gay marriage is a religious/church one, it stands to reason the prohibition of gay marriage is unconstitutional (which is what the California Supreme Court held and why Prop 8 is likely to be overturned by the courts).
But Church and State are supposed to be separate, aren't they? So that argument is invalid.
Thank you and thank you.



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Last Edited By: mariahfan150 Nov 18 08 7:35 AM. Edited 1 time.

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mariahfan150

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Nov 18 08 7:29 AM

MisplacedValidity wrote:
^ Right. The thing is, I can understand Christians wanting to spread their message and have everyone share their beliefs (to an extent we probably all want that) but forcing it on other people - and limiting what other people can express - is not the right way to do that.
I agree. There are 'good intentions' within Christianity and most religions, but we really don't need to be devout, churchgoing Christians (or whatever religion) to understand or remember those 'good intentions' within the bible or be 'holy'. From my experiences, devout, churchgoing Christians (and Catholics) are fascistic, alienating, judgmental and extremely (to the point of putting guilt-trips on you) proselytizing. They are the opposite of being 'holy', imo.




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Last Edited By: mariahfan150 Nov 18 08 7:38 AM. Edited 1 time.

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mariahfan150

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Nov 18 08 7:34 AM

MisplacedValidity wrote:
It's clear to me that, for whatever reason, abortion and gay marriage are the two token issues for Christians, even though the Bible purports that all sin is the same.
Exactly. That's another thing that annoys me about devout Christians (or Catholics). They pick and choose and interpret things the way they want. It's almost like religion (and it's 'good intentions') is just a way of masking a superiority complex.



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Nov 18 08 7:38 AM

Heres a q: Why don't Gays stand up for the civil rights they should get? I mean they aren't really outspoken at all when it comes to politics or their civil rights, why is that?.

Prop 8 is rubbish, Abortion, Gay marriage etc should stay legal. America is supposed to be the land of the free, not the land of the religious freaks.

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Nov 18 08 7:43 AM

ArabianLamb wrote:
Heres a q: Why don't Gays stand up for the civil rights they should get? I mean they aren't really outspoken at all when it comes to politics or their civil rights, why is that?.
They/we are (see G.L.A.D.D). It just doesn't get much media attention, unless some public figure says or does something homophobic. image



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MisplacedValidity

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Nov 18 08 11:30 AM

Another thing I don't get is why Christians always align with Republicans. Don't the Democratic ideals align more with the teachings of Jesus? Jesus hung out with prostitutes, not people like Ann Coulter or Bill O'Reilly. Again, it comes back to abortion and gay marriage; that's what people are voting on. "Who cares if the economy is going down the tubes and people don't have jobs? And who cares if not all people have health care? We can't let the gays get married."

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NhWxMaN

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Nov 18 08 12:04 PM

MisplacedValidity wrote:
NhWxMaN wrote:
because Christmas has been said for hundreds of years up through this millenium. its stupid to all of a sudden change it. i've seen major stores still have Happy Hunnukah signs so why cant they say Merry Christmas? I dont get bothered by it. i dont get why people are all of a sudden getting offended by it. As far as Dobson, marriage is written throughout the Bible as being male / female and in the end a religous ceremony. The foundation of this country is based on christian principles. So if you put the two together then many will think that the constitution writes it as being based on what I said. Being that it doesnt truly state anything then I think it should be clearly defined.

((Did you ignore the effect that the black voters had on the prop 8 vote?? Per CNN, had they not come out in droves then the law would have passed.))
The Constitution also calls for a separation of church and state, and since the only argument against gay marriage is a religious/church one, it stands to reason the prohibition of gay marriage is unconstitutional (which is what the California Supreme Court held and why Prop 8 is likely to be overturned by the courts).

If we were simply talking about "marriage," then most homosexuals wouldn't care about getting married since "marriage" is a church thing. That isn't what the debate it about. Our legal system affords certain rights to married people, and thus it's about equality under the law. Civil unions don't offer the same rights as an actual marriage. So, if we were to do away with "marriage" as the basis for health coverage (i.e. being covered by a spouse's health care), custody of children on the occasion of death, tax incentives, etc. then it wouldn't be a big deal and Christians could have "marriage" as they see fit. But as long as the law recognizes "marriage" differently than other forms of union, there will be this issue about gay marriage. And like I said, Christians apparently see no problem taxing homosexuals and using that money to pay for schools, health care, etc. so why shouldn't homosexuals get to partake in what their own tax money is paying for? Really, single people should be upset that we are discriminated against under the law because married people get a lot of things single people don't (and I don't just mean wedding showers).

As far as Dobson, marriage is written throughout the Bible as being male / female and in the end a religous ceremony.

The Bible also says Jesus' followers shouldn't be shouting on street corners, yet I saw Prop 8 supporters doing that. The Bible also condemns adultery, lying, stealing, etc. Plenty of people do those things, yet I don't see FOTF trying to deny marriage to known adulterers or known thiefs. I also don't see FOTF trying to deny marriage to someone like Elizabeth Taylor, and you can't tell me her 8 marriages somehow upholds the sanctity of marriage more than two homosexuals getting married. It's clear to me that, for whatever reason, abortion and gay marriage are the two token issues for Christians, even though the Bible purports that all sin is the same.

In terms of the other discussion, I'm not sure "Christmas" has just now become an issue. It's always been an issue. Probably it has become a larger issue as we get more immigrants into the country who aren't Christian. The U.S. is becoming more diverse, not less diverse. To that extent, we need to start being more inclusive, but churches are trying to hold on to their power and traditions. It's not going to work.
I agree that a true seperation of church and state needs to happen. It is extremely important and key to the future of our country. It would be wise to rewrite things like the constitution in order to void any type of religous effect on the law, but as we know that will never happen. As far as Liz Taylor, she is a good example at how pathetic the original meaning of marriage has become. I think people have forgotten the true significance of becoming married. Anyway, the unfortunate thing is that many Christian's loot at being gay as a worse sin then murder (which is a disgrace as I dont think being gay is a sin at all). The Bible teaches that all sins are equal, but in reality nobody in the church follows that.

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MisplacedValidity

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Nov 18 08 2:19 PM

^ And that is the reason most people have problems with "religion." I understand that not all people are perfect and can live up to the ideal of Christianity (or any religion), but the blatant contradictions and, really, venom that some people display are what bring about the 'religion as a weapon' mentality that turns a lot of people away from religion.

Another thing is that many Christians don't want to be challenged. I have a friend who is Christian and told me she was praying in regards to Obama getting elected. I asked why, and she said she believes leaders are appointed by God so she is trusting God in this. I then asked her, if that's true, what gave us the right to evict Saddam Hussein as a leader and execute him (I knew she was pro-war). She then said it was a good question and she'd have to research why and get back to me. In other words, she held the believe, didn't know why, and was then going to find something to back her belief. LAME! And actually, she has never gotten back to me

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